#45 - A Psychotic Break Changed What I Think About Death

What happens when your mind stops feeling like a safe place to live?

This week’s anonymous caller shares about experiencing a psychotic break in 2020, and what it changed about how they relate to death, reality, and their own sense of self. They do an unusually good job describing what psychosis can feel like from the inside, including a “movie logic” kind of certainty that’s hard to understand until you hear someone try to explain it.

A big part of this conversation is what came after. The caller talks about grounding themselves in logic and facts. Not as a debate, and not as a personality trait. More like a way to stay steady when everything had felt unreliable. From there we end up in some bigger questions too, like perception versus objective reality, how memory shifts when you revisit it, and what it can mean to believe “nothing happens” after death while still admitting how limited human comprehension is.

There’s tenderness here, and there’s also humor. At one point the caller drops the line: “this Barbie is going through it.” It’s strangely perfect.

In this episode:

• A psychotic break in 2020, and what it was like to live on the other side of it
• The feeling of being betrayed by your own mind
• Grounding in logic and facts as a way to feel steady again
• Psychosis, perception, and the gap between “my reality” and “objective reality”
• What “nothing happens” can mean, and why it might be beyond comprehension
• Identity, selfhood, and the weird edges of what we can explain

Book Recommendations: Into Thin Air (Jon Krakauer)

More book recommendations from past episodes: View the full list

Video Episode: If you’d like to watch this conversation instead of just listening, you can find the video version on YouTube.

Transcript

Cold Open: Death, Psychosis, Reality

SPEAKER_03 0:00

So, I mean, the mental break was kind of rooted in death. I mean, it's been on my mind for forever. I do think people who go through psychosis, it's going to be a mix of things that are already in your brain that your brain can pull from to distort reality. So during my psychotic episode, it's so weird to talk about, actually. But like the best way I've been able to describe it is it's kind of like you're in a movie where and the movie is rooted in reality. And then like something really crazy happens, and the main characters are like, we gotta go to the cops. And the other one turns to their the character and says, We can't go to the cops and never believe us.

Setting The Table: Caller’s Guard Lowers

SPEAKER_00 0:37

It all starts with a single question asked to an anonymous caller. What do you think happens when we die? And from there, the conversation goes in completely unexpected directions. Some speak with certainty, others with doubt, some are still trying to make sense of it all. I'm Zach Ansel, and this is When We Die Talks, a podcast about death, meaning, and how that shapes the way we live. This podcast was born from my own fears around death and the need to talk about. Thank you for being a part of this conversation. I'm glad you're here. This episode is sponsored by Naya Emberly. We often think of ashes as something that has to stay tucked away in an earth. But what if they could become something you carry with you, close to your heart, every single day? At Naya Emberly, remains are transformed using a proprietary process and a timeless jewelry. Pennants and bracelets that hold both beauty and meaning. It's a way to keep your loved ones present with you, not hidden on a shelf. Because memories aren't meant to gather dust, they're meant to be lived with. Discover more at nayaemberly.ca or ask your local funeral provider for more info. Hey, welcome back or welcome here if this is your first time. This call starts out a little cautious. You can feel our caller trying to figure out if this is a safe place to talk. And then you can feel them start to trust the space. They care about how they experienced a psychotic break in 2020 and how it changed the way they relate to their own mind and the death. A lot of this call is them trying to put to words something that is really hard to put into words. So I try to listen and create space for them and try to express it in any way that they can. At one point they say they felt betrayed by their own brain. And I think that's one of those sentences that you can say that you hear, but it's really hard to actually grasp. And after that experience, they describe grounding themselves in the logic and facts, not as a debate, but as a way to find something steady again. We end up in big places too. Perception, reality, what self means, and the limits of what humans can really understand about nothing. And maybe the most important lesson of all is that sometimes this Barbie is going through it. I promise you'll understand what that means in a bit. If this topic hits close to home, take your time with it. It's a bit heavier, but it's also fascinating. Let's get into the call. I hope you enjoy.

SPEAKER_03 2:58

How are you?

SPEAKER_00 2:59

I'm doing pretty good. It's been a little bit of a week, but yeah, I'm glad that we're doing this. So thank you for jumping on the phone.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

Yeah. Thank you for providing such an intriguing prompt.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Yeah, it's it's a little bit of an interesting one, and and that's actually kind of a perfect place to start. And obviously this could kick off into a much longer conversation. What made you want to jump on the phone with a stranger and talk about death?

SPEAKER_03 3:23

Well, I feel like the only people that want to talk about death are strangers. It's a very taboo topic in today's society.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

I've thought about death since a very early age, which feels a little atypical just from what I've gathered from other people's experiences.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Agreed.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

It's something that's on my mind often, and my feelings that have changed over time. And whenever I saw that someone else wanted to talk about that, it was very interesting to me. And I think it's an important topic for our society today as well.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

I'm excited because I feel like number one, your application was very interesting. So I'm excited to dive into what you brought up there. But I would say I feel very similarly where I felt like I thought about death a lot as a kid and it freaked me out for a very long time. So it'll be interesting to have a conversation with another person that has that kind of similar background. And I I guess I'll jump into kind of some more basic questions first and maybe just get to know you a little bit before we dive into the full conversation. Maybe you could give us an idea of like roughly where you live or where you're calling from, like city, state, and then uh the other question, which a lot of people think is the hardest question of the whole thing. What is your favorite book and why?

Place And Books That Shape Us

SPEAKER_03 4:39

Okay. All right. Sounds good. So I I live in the United States. I live in a southern state, Texas, to be exact.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:48

A larger city. Grew up in a rural area.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Okay. In Texas.

SPEAKER_03 4:53

Not that it matters, but yes, yes, in Texas.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:56

So that's kind of my background. Favorite book. It rotates. Today I would say it's Into Thin Air by John Crook. I don't know if you're familiar.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

I read a book that was written by another guy on that same expedition, but I haven't read Into Thin Air. I know Croc Hour, though.

SPEAKER_03 5:18

Okay, yeah. He's a great writer, really great journalist. It's a good read, really great adventure book. Everest has always intrigued me. And it also kind of goes into the ethics of climbing it at all.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Yeah. Like 20, no, not even 20 years ago, like 30 years ago, the ethics of climbing it then, let alone now.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

Yeah, there's a lot of trash out there, and people die every year. And it's kind of a touristy thing a little bit. Yeah. Like extreme tourism.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:42

One thing that's very interesting about the book is John, he's an outdoorsman, and he got outside magazine to pay for him to go on this expedition. He was going to write a story about it. And the expedition he went on just so happened to be the most deadly in I can't remember how many years, you know, since the climbing of Everest. So love that book, revisit it, but I'm I don't know. There's so many I could think of for different reasons.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Um I also love that you answered it with today, this is this is what it would be. And I feel like that's exactly how I'd answer the question. And I do have one book that I always kind of bring up, but it does totally rotate day to day.

SPEAKER_03 6:19

What is yours?

SPEAKER_00 6:20

My favorite book is a book called Illusions by Richard Bach. It's kind of like a philosophical fiction story. So that's the that's the one I always go back to, but if I wasn't allowed to pick that one, then it would be Yeah, I'd have to pull up my phone like and uh look at my good reads and see what I have written down as one of my favorites.

SPEAKER_03 6:42

All right. So yeah. So you have a reset, a recent favorite?

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Ugh. See, now you're asking all the hard questions. This isn't fair.

SPEAKER_03 6:49

Well, we have to get to know each other a little bit.

What Happens When We Die

SPEAKER_00 6:51

That's fair. That is totally fair. I read this probably at the beginning of last year. So it's definitely a little bit further back for me. It might even be two years ago. But the first thing that came to my brain was, and it's also another kind of short book called A Short Stay in Hell. And essentially this guy like wakes up and he's like in the processing room of like the afterlife or whatever. And he ends up essentially his uh quote unquote hell is he has to look through a library that is an infinite library with an infinite number of books, essentially, to find his life story written exactly as it is. And once he finds that book, he gets to go on to I don't know if it's uh described as heaven or not, but he gets to go on to the the next life. But it takes years and years and years before he finds a book that even has uh a word in it. You know, everything else is just uh scrambled digits and letters, and so you very quickly realize that he is going to be doing this for eternity, essentially. Yeah, it's just it's a it's another very interesting book. But I think that's uh that's probably the one I'd mention, and it's kind of topical.

SPEAKER_03 8:09

All right, cool. Yeah, that sounds really interesting and terrifying.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

It is a little terrifying. But um I was gonna say now I feel like I'm gonna turn this back on you, and we can just kind of jump into the the heart of the conversation, and you can start with what do you think happens when we die?

SPEAKER_03 8:29

All right, here we go.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Buckle up.

SPEAKER_03 8:33

I buckle up. Sounds anticlimatic, but I don't think anything happens. Not like on a level of human understanding whatsoever.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

And I guess my follow-up question to that would be, and partially because I know from your application, why do you feel that way?

SPEAKER_03 8:50

Yes. Well, there's a few different layers to that, and I would love to get into part of my application, which I think you may be referencing. I think it's the most logical thing for one.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

I think humans have assigned a spiritual level to death that isn't there. Why do we not groove the ants, their consciousness, in the same way?

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Yeah.

The Atheist Turn After A Breakdown

SPEAKER_03 9:11

So there's a lot of human ego wrapped around the idea of what happens after. I don't know if you have what I wrote whenever I wrote in. I couldn't find a record of it.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

I can pull it up right now. I'm just gonna quote exactly what you wrote down. So there's no uh so it doesn't feel like I'm uh projecting or making any assumptions or anything. So you wrote, I had a psychotic break in 2020. I looked into the void and the void stared back. The experience led me to be a strong atheist.

SPEAKER_03 9:43

Yes. Okay, yeah, I think that's a really quick notes version of it because I feel like with anything in life, there's so much nuance to it.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Totally.

SPEAKER_03 9:53

But I think the broad scope is there's nothing after this. Where does the candle go whenever it goes out? It is beyond human comprehension.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

And to some regards, I guess the way that I look at that in some ways, though, is are those two different things?

unknown 10:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Is it I would say, you know, my background, and I think partially why I started this is that nothing happens. That is very much what I have believed and felt, and I think that's where a lot of my anxiety came from around death, because imagining that this is it, you know, although that makes life more meaningful and and beautiful and all these things, uh, if there is this just like definite end and it's over, I stole this from my dad, but you know, fade to black game over, that's kind of terrifying. But I think it's interesting what with what you're saying is which I think is again exactly like you said, the nuance of it a little bit, the fact that it's beyond human understanding or comprehension, that leads me to think that there is room for that there is something, but we just can't comprehend or understand it. Maybe I'm I'm parsing that out too much, but I think in my head, when I've thought of nothingness, I'm like, it's just done. And so yeah, I'm curious about your thoughts around that, if that if that made sense. If it doesn't, I can I can try to explain uh more.

SPEAKER_03 11:10

But no, I think it makes total sense. And I think that's where so I think that's what also allows the human mind to go a little crazy sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:18

Because there's always the what if.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Yeah.

Inside Psychosis: Movie Logic And Cosmos

SPEAKER_03 11:20

It's always that little little bit of plausibility that can bring you down a rabbit hole. But I do hear what you're saying and I do agree with you in some ways. So sorry, let me like kind of go back because I feel like it's getting to a lot of like really um ambiguous and really large constructs talking about it.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

But we can also go there too. Is there something this is you get to you get to guide this.

SPEAKER_03 11:43

All right. Is there something? Yes, maybe, but does it even matter?

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Hmm. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 11:49

Does it have an effect?

SPEAKER_00 11:50

What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 11:52

I don't think so. Yeah, I think if you know or you don't, it doesn't matter. But humans want to know.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

Because we're just gone.

SPEAKER_03 11:59

Yeah, we're just gone. How do you wrap your brain around it? We're the one of the only animals that can perceive time in this way, that understands, yeah, conceptualizes the future. So I think we get in our heads a little bit about it.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

Yeah, absolutely. I know I do, and I don't think I'm alone, but yeah, I absolutely at least the two of us know for sure that it's very easy to get up in your head about it. And so for you, does that, at least at this point, you know, from the one that I'm like very curious about is like the statement of the void, you know, like I'm very curious about that. But in general, does this in 2026 does that create fear, anxiety? Like what what's your relationship with death?

SPEAKER_03 12:43

I used to be really scared of it, very, very scared of it. And I also grew up in a Christian household.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

Uh, which ironically, the thought of eternity also terrified me.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, to my point, the my kind of book at add-in is that eternity is a really long time, everyone. That's also very terrifying. So I I'm I'm right there with you too. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.

SPEAKER_03 13:05

No, no, I think that's a great tie-in to like kind of what we're talking about. But as a child, like just the death, not death was very scary to me. And I grew further and further away from religion after I graduated high school, but I was so agnostic for a long time, and it was always very comforting to think that I was going to live on in some sort of way.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

Or like there was going to be something else. It was very comforting to me, and it felt like that was a purposeful thing, even if I didn't understand it was in my life.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:37

And then after I I did, I had a mental breakdown. I was insane, like completely insane. And something that really helped my healing and recovery was becoming an atheist. Because whenever you lose your mind, the way that at least in my experience to get back to that was to live a life that's grounded in logic. No magical thinking. It was very helpful to me, but it was also very painful to me because then at the same time I recognized that I would be gone after this. And it really didn't it does matter, it doesn't matter. There's there's a very big like quantum soup going on, but for the purposes of my life and what's going on, like this is it.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

Yeah, it does matter at that level.

SPEAKER_03 14:23

Yes, it does. It does. It does matter. So on some level, it does matter. Life does matter.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:28

There is a meaning to life, but what is that meaning? Is it just for us to eat, to sleep, to reproduce? Humans want it to be something higher, but is it?

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Oh, it's very interesting.

SPEAKER_03 14:37

I'm still grappling and navigating with that experience.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:41

It's something I am open to talking about, but sometimes the words I I'll do my best. Yeah. So yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

We're just on this journey together and we're gonna see where it goes between two strangers. One of the questions I have around it is was it tied to your thoughts around death, or was it a much bigger thing and becoming an atheist kind of was able to to ground you, or rooting in atheism was able to ground you, or like was it something else?

SPEAKER_03 15:07

Well, I'm gonna do my best to answer.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Yeah. Yeah, totally. Um and if it doesn't make sense, or if it, you know, if you're like, yeah, that we can always rephrase. Yeah, we can always work around it or cut stuff out or whatever it needs to be.

SPEAKER_03 15:22

All right, cool. Yeah, so I thought I, or before you could you rephrase a question you would ask? Because I feel like I was just like totally zoned, or not zoned out, but I was trying to pay to attention to too many things totally at once.

When Perception Disagrees With Reality

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Totally. And I'll try not to ramble. I have a propensity to ramble and dance around my questions and try to make it make sense. And so I think really to like root into it was like, was this from looking at death and like having this mental break from thinking about death, or is this more complicated than that? And that's a terrible way of phrasing it, but okay, I'm gonna try to answer.

SPEAKER_03 16:01

So, I mean, the mental break was kind of rooted in death. I mean, it's been on my mind for forever. Uh I do think people who go through psychosis, it's going to be a mix of things that are already in your brain.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

That your brain can pull from to distort reality. So during my psychotic episode, I I did think I was going to die, but it felt very real to me. It's so weird to talk about, actually.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

I bet.

SPEAKER_03 16:27

But it's super crazy. Like the best way I've been able to describe it is it's kind of like you're in a movie where you know something like really weird happens and the movie is rooted in reality. And then like something really crazy happens, and the main characters are like, We gotta go to the cops. And the other one turns to their the character and says, We can't go to the cops, they'll never believe us.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:48

But the actions of the movie are still happening.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:51

So like that's kind of like what it was. And my break from reality was on a uh on a severely cosmological scale. I'm gonna probably ramble a little bit too during this. That's okay. So please feel free to pick up.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

I feel like it's I think it's better when you ramble than when I ramble.

SPEAKER_03 17:07

So, kind of to give you an idea of where my headspace was, I thought I had solved the paradox between string theory and quantum physics, I want to say.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 17:21

Because they're two competing theories.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 17:24

I could be mixing some of this up, which is also why I went psychotic, because I don't have a degree in any of this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Okay. I was gonna ask about kind of background there, but okay.

SPEAKER_03 17:33

No, I don't. I do really love science, and I like like I was reading, I can't even remember the name of the book, but it's like time, space, time dilation, all that fun stuff.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

Which there is proof for, and I feel like some people use to start to delve into different realities in that way.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

Which I feel like some people see as a type of yeah, so that's like a hut whole another string, yeah, you know, like rabbit hole that you can go down on it.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:00

But over the course of about six months, I started to believe that my body was getting eaten from the inside by these millions of just like hairs wrapped around themselves that were forming beneath my skin and were slowly eating the fabric of space-time.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

That's quite a description that like that paints a picture for sure.

SPEAKER_03 18:23

I always feel like weird saying it because it it sounds crazy and it is.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

But it's also your experience, right? You know, like yes. I don't know. I I would say, you know, there's no judgment on this end, you know. I I just think it's interesting to hear people talk about their experiences, and it's like, this is what you experienced, you know, like it was it was your reality.

SPEAKER_03 18:44

Right. Man, and I think you kind of get down to like what it is. It's that's something I've struggled with a lot, is it wasn't reality, but it also was.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Totally.

SPEAKER_03 18:52

So like your perception does shape the way your reality is.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 18:57

And then you have to distinguish between your reality and objective reality.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

Yeah.

Acceptance, Safety, And Coming Back

SPEAKER_03 19:01

So yeah, it was a really it was very terrifying experience. Yes. Yeah. And I feel like I have like a little bit of some defenses up about it. So sometimes I'm like, oh, it's okay, or that was wild, right? But it was, it was a very scary time. I was mutilating myself trying to get rid of this thing that was happening to me.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:21

Like trying to like draw the poison, I guess you could say. But in reality, it was just like these hairs, and I would kind of see these hairs too as like uh sometimes they would take on the shape, like it was like I was looking at a black hole. It's like I was seeing like all these like cosmological signs to like even in the smallest thing, I was also seeing like the relation back to like the big thing theory.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Like everything.

SPEAKER_03 19:40

Like seeing everything and something like the echoes.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Yeah, and that's that's wild.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

Yeah, and it accumulated with me. I mean, this went on for a few months, and I at first I like hid it some because I was aware it's still kind of a weird experience too, because I feel like logically, there's a part of me, there was a part of me that like still knew it was very strange.

SPEAKER_02 20:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:01

So I would intentionally not to talk not talk to people about it. But as time went on and there was more signs that were showing me irrefutable proof that like, no, this was actually happening. I became more and more distressed until I came to a point where I was just like hysterical and was I just was waiting for our world to completely blip out of existence because I knew that was what was going to happen one day. I could see it.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Yeah. Wow. Well, number one, I'm sorry that you had to go through that, but it I'm glad that you're doing better now.

SPEAKER_03 20:31

Cause that I can't I can't imagine.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

I mean, and nobody can, right? But it sounds like such a such a terrifying experience.

SPEAKER_03 20:39

Thank you. Yeah, I'm I'm really I'm happy I'm doing better too. I honestly never thought I would be where I am right now after I gained enough insight to recognize that like the world wasn't ending tomorrow and all these things, like because I had hallucinations. I had there's a lot of things I to go into that I I don't know. Feel free to ask me what you'd like to ask me, but also I know we're here to talk about death.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

I mean, this all this all connects in in ways for sure.

SPEAKER_03 21:04

It definitely does, which is such a I I think that's something about life. Like, there are connections and there's beauty in it. But anyways, after I gained enough insight to recognize that, like, oh, like objective reality is different than my reality, like this reality I can still see, and I'm still like living in this reality, but no one else is. I had to come to a space of acceptance where that's just like I was just going to be doomed to live between these like half worlds, like in one world and in one another. Yeah. But surprisingly, like once I like accepted it, it made everything so much better and easier. It was like I wasn't fighting it anymore. Yeah. I was just learning how to deal with it.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Which is wild, right? I mean, and that's and that is that's life, right? That's life in general. Is we fight so many things, and it's like the moment that we accept things. Um, and that's very though that that was a very vague statement. But yeah, when acceptance happens, there's so much that drops away.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Yes, it's the yin and the yang.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Yeah.

Meaning Without Magic

SPEAKER_03 22:02

There's a paradox to life and there's yeah, once you like accept it and let it go, it's like that the load seems so much lighter. Yeah. Even if it's the same as it was before. So yes, that was like really helpful. And I'm pretty far along in my recovery. It's an experience that sits with me and time stretched on for a really long time for me.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:23

At that time.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

I'm sure. I'm sure.

SPEAKER_03 22:25

It really felt like a million years. I didn't think I was ever going to get out. And really, like once you start to get into like some of that, like if you get into too much paradoxical thinking or start to believe in some sort of thing, like it there is a rabbit hole.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:41

There is a point that you begin to look at. It's very it's endless.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:45

It's endless. Which is why it can be dangerous sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:50

I think.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:51

So there's there's an art to it.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

It's easy to detach from reality, right? When you go down the rabbit hole and kind of and lose yourself.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

Yes. I think so. And I think too, that's what kind of made me like go full on atheist too, is because like all of these things I would see with people with psychosis where they're like illustrating, like, oh, I got this sign, so this means this, or like someone saying, God told me this, so I'm doing this, like, I would see this, and it it just made me think, like, oh, this is what people want, and they're assigning a deity or a spirit or something like that to these things. Like, I don't think humans have any. I think we can roll out any human theory on what happens after we die.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

See, you're answering all my questions along the way. Like, I was gonna ask you about the void a second ago, and you started talking about that a little bit. And then I was gonna bring it back to death by asking about how this kind of moved you toward atheism, and you answered that. So, see, you're making my job really easy.

SPEAKER_03 23:48

You're uh hurting me along.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

I'm trying to. I feel like that's kind of what I tell people is like you're steering the ship, and I'm just kind of like maybe pointing out things like, you know, let's let's not hit that thing over there. Not that we're gonna hit anything, but yeah, I'm just kind of guiding it along. But yeah, I think you you hit kind of all the big things. You know, I've talked to almost 50 anonymous people through this. And I think a lot of people kind of land in the um atheist agnostic. There might be, there might not be, but I think you're the first person, which was also very interesting from your application of this led me to being a uh I don't want to misquote, but I don't remember, I'm sorry, but like a a staunch or strict atheist. So I actually love that about your application and the story that you're telling is like this experience led to it because yeah, we're humans, we want to create meaning out of this. We want this to mean something. And we want to know that in a lot of cases, with all, you know, with I don't want to say all organized religion, but I would say from what I know about organized religion that there is something else. Like that's part of the prescription. And so yeah, I think it's very interesting to hear from you to be, you know, hey, this experience led to me very being very strictly atheist.

Childhood Anxiety And Early Death Thoughts

SPEAKER_03 25:04

Yes, strong atheist now, succumb to the void, death of the kindness, there's nothing else out there.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Just summing it up right there. Beautiful beautifully said.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

I guess so. Yeah, I feel like we can get into quantum reasons why there's something there, but I don't think it mat I don't think it's gonna matter. I think the way a human dies is the same way a snake dies.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:28

Or a mouse dies or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Yeah, I feel like if there is quote unquote something else, it's very similar to what you're saying. It's on a level that we can't comprehend because it doesn't involve self, if that's the word that you want to use, or I think egos become this like really big word that everybody uses now. But like if there is more, then it's you know, just going back to like a pool of consciousness that everything exists, you know, with consciousness at some capacity. So yeah, I think we're I think we're aligned in a lot of ways. I do have another question, but it's gonna take us in a completely different direction. So I don't want to cut off if you have some like amazing insight at this moment.

SPEAKER_03 26:11

Um I don't know. I don't know if it'll lead into your next question or not, but um if it does, I'm gonna be very impressed. Okay, let's see where it goes. Yeah, I do we can agree on some things. I think most of the philosophical humans I meet, like, they believe in the here and now. Yeah. Like we may disagree on some other things too, but I think the here and now is it's not nothing.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:37

And I think some people understand, and I think that's a good common ground to meet consciousness. Man, that's a whole nother big thing. But I think, yeah, I think we just go back into the environment, and I think that in that way there is an afterlife where it's like there is a beauty in this system, yeah. Where there is no waste. I mean, we can argue to like some human, like man-made stuff, but it's like it's it's a very beautiful system that is set up. It's got life and death and beauty and drama, and I don't know, there's just so many things that are happening in our world, and like we just may not be conscious in the human way to experience it, but it is it is all around us all the time. Yeah. The markers of our past.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

Yeah, that was beautiful. I like that a lot. But it didn't answer my question because I'm gonna go a completely different direction. Obviously, we're different humans, we have different experiences and different thoughts. I think we align in some things, and that's why I kind of wanted to go back to one of the things that you said at the very beginning, which was, you know, death was something that you thought about when you were young. And yeah, that's not something that I feel like I've come across a lot either. And maybe other people have had that experience, but they just don't talk about it. But I'm curious of like what that was like for you growing up. You know, how did that manifest, I guess?

Humor As Handhold: “This Barbie Is Going Through It”

SPEAKER_03 27:54

I think subconsciously it made me scared to go to bed at night. I do remember it it would make me a very anxious child. And I remember like watching my sister sleep and just like making sure she was breathing, because I was just like very acutely aware that at any time something like the thought of just like moments was very like hard for me. And I think like it resolved in some like obsessive, compulsive behaviors as I got older too, like trying to control that which cannot be.

SPEAKER_02 28:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:28

So randomness to life. But yeah, so it kind of I don't know if I'm answering your question or not, but it did like kind of make me like an anxious, like kind of an anxious kid. I had a similar experience to you where I don't feel like I feel like I was just thinking of all these like deep or super caught like existential type like things. And whenever I talk to my friends, I was just like not even on their radar. Like, I just don't want to bum everyone out.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

We're playing with Legos, like what's going on? But what happens when a Lego dies?

SPEAKER_03 28:57

Like, are Barbie Yeah, are Barbie's supposed to be going to the movies? It's like, no, this Barbie is going through it.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

This Barbie's a mess, okay? Let her have her day.

SPEAKER_03 29:08

Yeah, going through an ego death, okay? Happen. So yeah, I kind of have a similar experience. There's a few friends I met over the years that I'm thankful that do like to have conversations like this, but I don't think a lot of people are thinking about it. I think people don't want to think about it. Yeah. That's a scary.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Yeah, we're all we're definitely all gonna go through it. I think that's what I come up a lot against is superstition to some extent. And maybe that's a too big of a blanket word, but you know, if I talk about it, then it's gonna bring the energies of death near me and it's gonna happen. So I don't want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_03 29:39

Completely. This is a worthwhile topic. We're all going to go through it, and I personally feel like a lot of people's hesitancy to really think about those kind of things is a detriment to our current society. Because if there's another world or there's another life, or whatever, I'm just gonna go to heaven, what motivation do you have to make things better right now?

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:08

Like I feel like it seems like very deceitful sometimes, my personal opinion.

SPEAKER_02 30:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:13

On it.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

And that's what we're that's what we're here for, is your personal opinion. So shout it.

SPEAKER_03 30:19

Yeah, I think so. My belief, especially with being betrayed by my own mind, it really like fucks me up like not being able to trust your trust yourself at all. But I do have a belief, and it's in the here and now.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:33

This is this really the present moment is all that matters.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Uh, you're speaking my language. Because this is something I've been thinking about a lot lately. Of I think Ram Das has like a quote about, and this is a very abbreviated version of it, but like, time is a box, and so much of how people live is in the past and the future, which I understand that the past and the future exist in ways, but we never live in the past or the future. The only thing that we ever live in is right now, forever. Well, until we die. But right, like until we die, yeah. There is, and it is semantics or whatever you want to say, but like there really is no past. And there really is no future. They're ideas that you know your brain constructs in ways, like, and of course, it's very nuanced, but I very much agree with the here and now is all that we have.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

Exactly. I think kind of what you were talking about, the past and the future, they they're forms of consciousness.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:34

I mean, I guess we could like start to get into like space-time, which is a whole nother thing.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

Yeah, there's really no you don't really jump into other small topics when you talk about death, right? You know, it's like, okay, well, then let's talk about identity and self. Okay, well, that's another big topic, or time, or all these things.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

There are, and I feel like I may be jumping like too far, like too fast on it. But yeah, I think the past and the future, they are the human mind can we can understand them, but as far as like our physical bodies, like there's no other plane of reality that we can exist in. Yeah. It's only this one.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

And to your your story, right? Your brain can also manipulate that, right? That information of the past and the future. And there's the studies of when you go back for memories, it alters them.

SPEAKER_03 32:24

So yeah, perception and that's perception is reality, but perception also isn't reality, and perception influences reality. It's kind of like the snake eating itself.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:37

There's a, I mean, I do think about the infinity like loop a lot. I do think like there's something to that. Yeah. Like I think on a cosmic scale, what's it all about? I'm not sure, but there are like things that repeat in nature. And I think there's I think you can kind of go down too much of a rabbit hole on that. But it is interesting how those things come up. But yes, human perception totally, I mean, you've seen that in police lineup too, where it's like the ID the wrong person. Like, you just don't see, like, our memories aren't the best game for reality always.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

Absolutely.

Memory, Time, And The Limits Of Knowing

SPEAKER_03 33:09

But our brains influence how we interact with reality. So it is, in fact, our reality sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

And once again, you know, then you just go in circles, right? Which is the the crazy thing about it.

SPEAKER_03 33:21

Exactly. There has to be an end.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

Yep. Sometimes it's like, I'm just gonna take a step back because yeah, you can just spin out forever. I do have one last question for you, but I think I just want to like circle back one more time and just say, I'm so glad that you're doing better. And it seems like you're in a good place or a better place now.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

Yeah, thank you. Thanks for giving me a platform too. I I hope there's I can share about that experience. I'm just still trying to work through it myself. But yes, doing a lot better. I would never wish it on anyone.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:51

But yeah, I'm doing a lot better. I'm stronger than I was before. I'm in the here and now with you, my friend. Yeah. I'm not on any other planet. So I really I'm really thankful every day that I am sane. So yeah. So thank you. Thank you for your well wishes. I appreciate it. It was a really wild experience, and it's made me very empathetic to anyone with schizophrenia or something like that because I it's hard to understand until you've been through it. And now it's like, I get it, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

It does I mean it does. Well, it does as much as it can, right? I right understand as I as much as I possibly can, and there's still a disconnect there, but I am compassionate to to what you've been through. And yeah, I'm glad that you're doing better. So that's good. I will now ask my final question. What's one thing you still want to experience in this life?

SPEAKER_03 34:40

I don't know if there's necessarily an experience or not, but right now the thing that's on my mind is becoming bilingual.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_03 34:49

I have started taking classes, and I really want I really don't want to take my brain for granted anymore, and I'm really starting to do some other things. So right now, my answer is I it's not necessarily an experience, but that's something, that's a goal, that's something I'm like working towards that I would like to do in my life.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

What language?

SPEAKER_03 35:09

Nice Spanish, nice, very big Spanish community here. So working on that. But yeah, besides that, I'm not really sure. After my breakdown, I kind of went into a full on. Sorry, feel like it's going like really like downhill, but I was like super depressed for several years. I kind of was just like, I'm ready to die. So I'm like still digging out of that whole, like, if I would have talked to you a year ago, I'm like, eh, I'll just be on my couch. So like I haven't really thought a lot about a ton of like big goals or like things I want to do. But maybe I'll reflect on that some more. I probably need to have some more things to work towards.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

Maybe or maybe not. I don't know. I like I like your answer of just like there's an aspect of it that is I want to experience being able to communicate in Spanish with others.

SPEAKER_03 35:55

That is yeah, that is something switch my brain back and forth.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Yeah.

unknown 35:59

Yeah.

Empathy After The Void

SPEAKER_00 35:59

I think that's I think that's an amazing thing. I'm also in a place where I've gone back and forth a couple times in my life. You know, I learned Spanish in in in high school and it was like, you know, you gotta do it for college. And so it's like, you don't really, or at least I didn't. It was like, this isn't to learn Spanish, this is to get into college, you know. So it was, you know, I remember some stuff, and then a couple years ago, I was traveling to Mexico quite a bit, and I was like, I, you know, I just wanna be able to communicate. And I, you know, took lessons, I don't know, for like three years. And I was by no means fluent, but you know, I could communicate and then I just stopped. And it's been a goal for me recently, too, to to pick Spanish back up and try to I got it. You know what? The experience is we're gonna do another call. It's probably gonna have to be in a while, maybe like 10 years. And we're gonna do it in all Spanish. That's what's gonna happen. Well, thank you so much for being willing to do this. I can tell that, you know, this is you know, we talked about some hard things for you. And so I just want to say thank you for being willing to be vulnerable and and talk to me and and share your story. I think it's important to talk about not only death, but just all of these things. Like, I don't know. I think we've gotten to a weird place in the world where because now we look at everybody as like a little, you know, circle icon on social media or whatever. It's like we don't we've kind of lost some humanity and just having these conversations, yes, they're about death, but they're also about life and just what other humans are going through. And so I'm extremely grateful to you for being willing to to share your story and and open up. Uh I it means a lot.

One Life Goal: Learn Spanish

SPEAKER_03 37:48

Oh yeah, thank you. Community. I think we've lost a lot of community and humans talking to each other. That's what else is there. So yeah, thanks for your well-wishes. And um, it's something that I'm not opposed to talking about. It's just very bizarre and hard to explain. Yeah, you're still processing. But so yeah, happy to share. And again, I think this is a great, a great discussion to have.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:15

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

Yeah. Well, thank you. And we'll definitely stay in touch and I hope you have a good rest of your day.

SPEAKER_03 38:22

Yeah, thanks. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

All right, take care.

SPEAKER_03 38:25

Bye.

Closing Gratitude And Listener Invitations

SPEAKER_00 38:26

Bye. I just want to say thank you again to this caller. This can't be an easy thing to talk about, and the fact that they were willing to share it with a complete stranger in a way that was as honest as it was is something I don't take lightly. I really, truly am grateful. I also want to share one thing they said to me after we stopped recording. I don't usually mention what happens after the call, but this made me genuinely happy. They said, I enjoy life now. I didn't think I would ever enjoy it again. That line just makes me smile. And it's a good reminder that even when someone is still working through something, it doesn't mean that the story is only dark. Sometimes there's real relief in there too. One last thing before I go, I've been getting a lot of positive feedback about the Saturday contemplations lately. A couple recent callers have brought them up and I've gotten messages from a few listeners too. I'm really glad that they're landing because I really enjoy creating them. Someone also asked me recently if I'd ever do personalized contemplations for people going through a hard season. I love that idea, and I'm gonna spend some time thinking about how I can make that possible. If that's something you'd be interested in too, just reach out and let me know. Alright, that's it for this week. Thanks for listening to this episode of When We Dietalks. These conversations don't offer answers, but they do open space. Space to reflect, to feel less alone, and maybe to see things a little bit differently than before. If you'd like to explore your own beliefs out loud, you can apply to be an anonymous caller at WhenWeDietalks.com. And if a full call feels like too much, the voicemail is always open. Leave a message at 971-328-0864 and share whatever death has stirred in your life. Listener support truly helps keep this project going. If you'd like to support the podcast, you'll find a link in the show notes. And as always, please like, share, and follow. Every bit makes a difference. Until next time, have a good life.