#48 - What If Death Feels Like Being Stuck Forever?

What if death isn’t peaceful, or blank, or anything you can make sense of, but something you’re trapped inside?

This week’s anonymous caller doesn’t come in with a comforting belief or a story about loss. They come in with death anxiety. The kind that’s hard to explain even when you’re trying to explain it.

We talk through what the fear actually feels like when you get specific. Not just “I’m afraid to die,” but fear of being stuck, fear of losing control, fear of being alone in whatever comes next.

And toward the end, something shifts. Not because we solve anything, but because the caller says out loud what most people keep private and realizes that naming it helped.

In this episode:

• A caller trying to describe death anxiety in real time
• The fear of “eternity” as being stuck, conscious, and alone
• How religious upbringing can leave fear residue, even after beliefs change
• Control, spiraling, and what it feels like when the fear grabs hold
• What talking about death anxiety does (and doesn’t) change
• Why saying it out loud can soften the grip, even without answers

A few moments from the call:

• “I just have this crushing fear of what I don’t want it to be like.”
• “I am going to be stuck in eternity alone.”
• “Us talking about it, it helps me… it might not even be like that.”

Book Recommendation: The Good Earth (Pearl S. Buck); The Death Gate Cycle (Margaret Weis & Tracy Hickman)

More book recommendations from past episodes: View the full list

Video Episode: If you’d like to watch this conversation instead of just listening, you can find the video version on YouTube.

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Transcript

Framing The Fear Of Death

SPEAKER_01 0:00

It's not that I don't even have a theory about what happens when we die. Instead, I just have this crushing fear and theory of what I don't want it to be like. When I when I think about death, it's not so much the concept of what it will be like, so much as just what it could be like. And if you were to ask me what happens if we just cease to exist, we're done, that's it. But if you ask me about what I'm afraid is going to happen, that's a completely different story.

Project Support And Story Keepsakes

Why Talk About Death Now

Getting To Know The Caller

SPEAKER_00 0:28

It all starts with a single question asked to an anonymous caller. What do you think happens when we die? And from there, the conversation goes in completely unexpected directions. Some speak with certainty, others with doubt, some are still trying to make sense of it all. I'm Zach Ansel, and this is When We Die Talks, a podcast about death, meaning, and how that shapes the way we live. This podcast was born from my own fears around death and the need to talk about. Thank you for being a part of this conversation. I'm glad you're here. This episode is supported by Nimostheny, a project I've been building alongside this podcast. Momostheny is a simple way to tell your story in your own voice. It's a guided, audio-first conversation with me where we capture the parts of your life that matter to you. Where you came from, the people who shaped you, the seasons that changed you, and the moments you don't want to lose. It's not therapy and it's not a performance. It's just a real conversation that becomes a private audio keepsake you can share with the people you love or keep for yourself. If you want to learn more, you can find it at Nimostony.com. That's N-E-M-O-S-E-N E.com. Hey, welcome back or welcome here if you're new. I recorded this call a while ago, and when I listened back, I kept thinking, man, I am all over the place in this one. I ramble a lot and I get in my head about it, and I worried I wouldn't be able to edit it in a way that felt cohesive. But I kept coming back to it because the caller is talking about something that a lot of people feel and almost never talk about. This one isn't a conversation about grief. It's not someone who's around death every day. It's not a belief system. It's just a fear. And the weird part is they can feel it clearly, but they can't quite explain it. You can hear them trying to get the words out, and you can also hear how hard that is. Because when you can't name it, it doesn't just stay scary. It gets isolating, like you're stuck in it by yourself. And as we keep talking, the fear starts to show its shape a little more. It's not only I'm scared to die, it's a fear of being trapped, a fear of losing control, a fear of being alone in whatever comes next. Like the most unbearable version of this is not knowing and not being able to get out. If you've ever had that tight, spiraling kind of death anxiety, you're gonna recognize it immediately. And if you're someone who avoids thinking about this stuff because you're worried it'll make things worse, I get that too. That's a part of what's honest about this call. We're not trying to fix it. We're just staying with it long enough to see what happens when it's spoken out loud. Because something does shift by the end. Not in a problem-solved kind of way, more like the temperature drops just a little. The caller even says talking about it helped. And I didn't plan that. It just happens. So yeah, I'm a little messy in this one, but the conversation is worth it. Let's get into the call. I hope you enjoy. Hey, how's it going?

SPEAKER_01 3:24

It goes. I'm doing well. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 3:26

I'm good. I'm glad that you were willing to do this and to jump on the phone and have a conversation about death. Not always something that people want to do. So thank you for being willing to do this. And that can kind of lead us straight into a lead-in question, maybe just kind of keeping it somewhat brief, because this could, you know, take us off into a full-on conversation. But why were you even interested in doing a conversation like this?

SPEAKER_01 3:52

I think that the concept of death and what happens afterwards, because I have such a fear of it and I don't know what happens, because there's so much death going on in the world now, it made me really want to be able to talk about it and challenge myself to, you know, really consider what it means to me.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

I love that because that is essentially why I started this project. So I think this is gonna be a wonderful conversation because I think a lot of times when people come on here, it is not necessarily not afraid of death, but kind of is very comfortable and confident and and wants to talk about it. So I think this will be a fun conversation since you and I align on the fact that it is terrifying.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

But before we kind of jump off into the the full-on conversation and everything, maybe we can kind of get to know you just a little bit, obviously keeping the anonymity and everything, but maybe you can just give like a rough idea of where you're calling from and then your favorite book and why.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Oh okay. Roughly, I am in the southwest desert. Am I allowed to say the city, or is that too?

SPEAKER_00 5:09

I mean, uh honestly, the whole the whole anonymity thing is more for you to feel c comfortable. Like city-state is normally what people give. So it's more about your comfort level than anything.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Okay. Yeah. So I live in Las Vegas.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Oh, interesting. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

And yeah, well say it's Nevada. I live in the valley. And it's I think that has had a lot to do with how just growing up here is very different, I find, than, you know, like a suburb in California or in the Midwest or you know, stuff like that. Because I grew up where it was normal to see spot machines in gas stations. And yeah, I different environments. Yeah, exactly. You don't think twice about it when this is like the environment that you're raised.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Totally, totally.

What Do You Think Happens

SPEAKER_01 6:00

And my favorite book. So if it has to be a singular book, it is The Good Earth by Pearl S. Buck. But overall literature, I love the Death Gate Cycle. It is a fantasy, high fantasy series from um Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Awesome. I'll always take more recommendations than just one.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The first one is called Dragonwing. It is the same, the same authors as the Dragonlance series. So if you ever play like D D and stuff like that, it's the same authors, but they wrote it well after Dragonlance. So it's just, it's beautiful. Lots of it's a gorgeous, gorgeous series. I love the world building. The Good Earth though, just so you know what you're getting into, it's kind of like um, it's set in uh long ago China and it follows like the life story of like this poor Chinese farmer and like his kind of like life as he, I don't know, it's it's I don't know why I love it. I just love it.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Hey. Um that's that's that's all it needs to be. If you love it, you love it. And yeah, I'll definitely check it out. And thank you so much for those. We can just kind of dive in with the big question of what do you think happens when we die?

The Specific Shape Of Fear

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Okay, what do I think happens when we die? So there's a long and a short of it. I think that we as a consciousness cease to exist, but our energy either gets absorbed or is kind of just set adrift and is just there. Kind of a vague idea, it's fairly ineffable. But uh I think the what when I was contemplating this question, what I found interesting is that it's not that I don't even have a theory about what happens when we die. Instead, I just have this crushing fear and theory of what I don't want it to be like, and that's going to be what I don't want it to be like. When I when I think about death, it's not so much the concept of what it will be like, so much as the just what it could be like. And if you were to ask me what happens, it's just this vague, you know, we just don't, we cease to exist. That's it, we're done, that's it. There's nothing there anymore. Um, but if you ask about what I'm afraid is going to happen, that's a completely different story. I have a very specific, like, this is what I think, it's not even what I think, it's just it's what I'm afraid of happening, but it's that is just so much more specific. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Um I am I was gonna say, I'm gonna jump in really quick because I'm super interested. Because I think my fear comes from the first thing that you talked about is that we just cease to exist. Nobody understands what that means, right? Because we don't know how to not be us or exist, like that's just not something that we can comprehend. But you you're saying that that that's not even what what scares you. It's this other idea. So I'm I'm super curious about that. If you want to jump into that or if you want to keep going where you're going, I'd love to hear if you're willing to share what you're terrified of, if that's not a weird thing to talk about.

Trapped In Timeless Loops

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Yeah, no, I definitely can. So to do that, um, I'll just give some backstory um so for like context. Yeah. So I I was raised Roman Catholic, but I experienced uh pretty significant trauma at an early age, not from the church, but in general in my life, and that was enough for me to stop believing in God. Okay. And so that when that happened, you know, years passed, and in high school I ended up going through additional related trauma. And then so I with all that said, I found my way into like the goth and metal scene. So I was really into horror and all the things. But when I thought about death, I was still stuck on the sphere of of hell from when I was growing up. So the thing is, I don't even believe hell is like eternal fire. I just draw a blank funny enough. I I don't believe in God, but I absolutely believe in demons and evil entities. Which I think from a psychological standpoint, I'm pretty sure that just goes back to what I was encultured in as a child. But it's kind of the same approach that my my mind kind of takes me in that I don't, it's not that I'm afraid of like nothing. I'm afraid of if there's something. So I feel like if anything, I feel like this, I I guess you could say that this would be my idea or theory of hell. And I also feel like that's what's going to happen to me after I die. So that's that's a thing. So I basically I feel like I'm afraid that when I die, this not not everyone, but I'm afraid that when I die, I'm going to be stuck in eternity alone. And it's very hard to describe. It's basically what I have felt like if I smoke too much weed and start to hallucinate, like I have AHD and bipolar. And so um, I have hallucinated before when I've smoked too much, and it's that same surreal out-of-body experience where I can't quite focus on any one thing, but my consciousness is present. It's I'm stuck in a moment of time and it turns, and for whatever reason, it just kind of warps or turns into a different moment of time or memory or place where I'm seeing this all from a first person perspective, but I know that I'm not there. Um, so it's very, and I don't have a body, but it's like the way that I see it, it's like there's a tiny, oh no, this sounds crazy. There's a tiny black dot at the very center of my vision. And that's the only thing that's real and constant. So let's say that like right now I'm sitting in front of a computer and I'm sitting in front of a computer, but in my vision as I stare forward, there's a tiny black dot, and nothing around me is real. And then only the dot is, I wouldn't say it's like a title, but that's the only fixed point that connects me to anything where I'm just connected to myself. And so then it'll change, like kind of like a montage of memories where I now I'm in like a different place or memory, but I can't interact with anyone or anything. And it's the only way I can think about that is like I'm stuck in like a loop, and it's I describe it as eternity, and that's what I think eternity is like is just being stuck in this timeless loop without connection to anyone or anything, but being conscious and present, just in my mind being present. And that's that's really, really scary. I I I think um I experienced the same level of terror and like unease when I was watching it was uh an episode from Black Mirror called Playtest. It's like he goes, like he leaves his house, and then he goes to he live he's been living in like abroad Europe somewhere, and then he goes to be like a playtester, and then he gets a phone call as they're hooking him up to this little thing on his head, and he's like in this video game, but like he I don't know, it's it's crazy. But I I would say just watch it and that's that feeling that I had kind of evoked it was reminiscent of the fear of what I think life after death is going to be like and it just it terrifies me to even consider. I just think that I'll be stuck in eternity, and that just that terrifies me. I would much rather just be nothing. I would rather be with people I love, yeah. Or, you know, I'd love it if reincarnation were real, like just the karmic cycle in general until you reach enlightenment as the Buddhists believe. Yeah. Um, I would love that, but I just the cynic in me just doesn't think that's the case.

Comparisons To Film And Hallucinations

SPEAKER_00 13:46

Totally. I'm in the same boat. I don't even know if it's even a nicer word to call ourselves, but I would like say a skeptic versus a cynic. But I mean it's probably it's probably all the same. But I'm right there with you where there's these beautiful, beautiful things that I wish I could believe in. And I don't know. I think that's something that I'm I'm also wrestling with a little bit where it's like, why can't I believe in that? There there is like to some extent, like I have a choice to have some faith in that or whatever and and let go of you know, whatever is holding me back. And obviously that is a very, very, very boiled down version of what it would take, probably. But I do think about that. I think reincarnation and and that whole process of you know learning the lessons and trying to attain enlightenment and all that, I think that's beautiful. And I would I'd be down with that. But but yeah, I mean I get I get what you're saying. I guess I just have it really entertained the thought of eternity a ton. What you're describing is in it in your eternity is something pretty pretty terrifying. Like I will agree with you. And anytime I even entertain eternity, it's like, oh yeah, I'm just doing this thing over and over and over again. And it's not necessarily a negative thing, but eternity kind of sounds like it would get exhausting. I just I took this class yesterday and it was like a death meditation class, and one of the things that we talked about was the idea that the fact that death happens actually gives life meaning, and that's not like a grand statement or like something that like nobody has ever said before. If you did have eternity while you were here, you know, you could just go like sit in a ditch and do nothing forever, and then you'd still have time to do other things because there's always more time to do stuff. Death creates that for us. But getting back to your point, sorry, I'm I'm rambling a little bit. Oh yeah, I've always imagined eternity in a way of it being nice or whatever in some sense. It's not something that I necessarily believe in, but it's mundane because you're just doing the same stuff over and over, and at some point it's gonna be like this is boring. But whenever I start to entertain ideas of eternity or whatever, I've realized I never instinctually imagine me being with people. It's always me on my own.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Uh yeah. I don't necessarily know what the question is there, but like there is the similarity between us of like this idea of eternity is it only involves us.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

I think that's kind of interesting. I think that part of why, at least from what I would from that line of like that line of thought, I think that it makes the most sense because we are always within ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

So even if we're not always around other people, we still have our own, you know, consciousness and internal monologue. We have our own perspective at all times. So it's probably a lot easier to think of it in that way. And so, like what it what I wanted to mention too is that um it's hard for me to describe. So the way that I think about like this eternity, it's not even where I'm just like in this white space or black space. It's it is I am within a moment of time in my life and the only thing in front of me, like I can see everything, but then like there's a very small black dot that's fixed at the very center of my vision. That is the only thing that's real, where I the eternity is sent in a loop of like memories where I have no autonomy. Um, I have no control of like what what happens, how long I'm in that space, anything. It's just I it's just I'm just stuck.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

So you're just like a viewer of this yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Like almost if you take like a Rolodex and like flip through it, and these are like these are the images, these are the the memories are the the space of being that you're in at any given time, but none of it matters and none of it is real because you are alone, it's just gonna loop over and over. And the only thing that is real is you knowing that none of this is real. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, no, it does.

Autonomy, Control, And Comfort

SPEAKER_00 17:59

I mean, the first thing I want to make a joke, because I I don't exactly know what the demographic breakdown is, but I wonder how many people will listen and immediately say, What's a Rolodex? Which is so sad. But I I am totally getting this visual of this like cards of memories just like flying past you, and you have no way to to control or experience outside of just being a spectator. I'm just trying to imagine it a little bit of, and now I'll go to bed and I'll be freaking out, and you know, this will be my new nightmare. But I'm imagining like experiencing some of these moments of like, oh wow, I really should have done something different. Like, and I can imagine like being a viewer and like seeing and just being like, do something, do it, you know, like, and just being like so frustrated with that. And so I that's at least how I'm envisioning it and how I will not sleep tonight. Just kidding. But that is, am I kind of like on the right track of like where where your fear is, or am I adding to it or making work?

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

No, no, no, no, because I've I've thought about it.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Well, to some extent you've said you've you've experienced it, right? You know, like you've said that you've had had like moments of it when you've had too much weed.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Oh yeah. Like so it's like it's when I hallucinated, yeah. Yeah, and so that's clarifying. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

So it's not just a thought experiment, it's it's something that you have actually felt. But anyway, I cut you off. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Oh, no, no, you're fine. Have you ever had a dream that you knew was a dream and you were trying desperately to wake up from, but you couldn't?

SPEAKER_00 19:44

I haven't because I don't really remember my dreams that much.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

It's also along the lines of what it feels like in my in my theory and great fear of what I think is going to happen. It's that the feeling when I've been in a dream and I realize it's in a dream, I need to wake up and I'm willing myself to wake up and like open my eyes, I gotta wake up and I can't. I can't do anything. It's kind of in that same like helplessness and like complete lack of control despite the awareness of the situation. That's I think that's the best way that I could describe it.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Yeah, it seems like there's a lot of it surrounding just like the loss of autonomy and not being able to make your decisions and and do what you want to do, which again, yeah, that is very, very reasonable. I'm a person that really likes to be able to do what I want to do and not have anybody tell me what to do. And so to kind of be trapped in that, I I I get that that's that that is terrifying. And to maybe kind of bring bring us back out of this a little bit, I hope I haven't made things more stressful on your end.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

No, no, no, no. It's actually it's it's really good for me to think about because it makes me appreciate that I'm here.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

Um, because I I don't I don't think about death, you know. I don't I don't like to. Yeah. Um no, I don't think anyone really does like to think about their own death, but I think for me it's more so that I don't want to leave behind the people that I love. Like I have kids and I I don't want to envision a life without them, or you know, not a life. But then at the same time, who's to say that we would even be aware, right? Like I think that if because we as humans are like we are thinkers that we do, the thought of not being able to think and having no thought is terrifying because that is who that is what we identify as that's all we've ever been able to do. Mm-hmm. But like, what if we cease to exist? But we cease to exist, the consciousness would not be there. We wouldn't even know.

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

Like it wouldn't feel like anything, right? Like I honestly find a little bit of comfort in that. As much as as much discomfort as I feel about not existing anymore. I kind of feel like that would be comforting. We wouldn't even know what comfort is, you know? And so I feel like that's the best I can hope for.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

I'd rather that than the other.

Avoidance Versus Engagement

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Yeah. Absolutely. I think of the two options that you gave, I get that. I don't know why. And I I want to I want to ask another question, but now the visual that I'm kind of getting. Have you seen Interstellar?

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

I'm kind of imagining when Matthew McConaughey's like, I think I I think he's in the black hole. I can't remember exactly. But he's like trying to talk to Merc. Yeah, and it's like he and he's trying to interact and try, but it's like all of time is happening around him like all at once and flying by, and he's in this like weird liminal space. Like that's the visual that just came to my brain. So I was like, I'm gonna throw that out there. I don't know. I don't know what kind of like that. I don't know what it adds or or doesn't. I guess the question that oh you go ahead. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Sorry, sorry, don't I'm sorry. Well, I'll just say really quickly, when you bring that up, I think that that is like what he must have been feeling and experiencing at that point in the movie. I think that's what it what I'm afraid that it's going to feel like, but the visuals are very different for me. Yeah. If that makes sense. Anyway, go on.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Yeah, no, that's I mean, that's good clarification for sure. And you kind of touched on this a little bit, but obviously there's this huge fear around this kind of I'll call it possibility, but is that then just the and this is kind of getting back to what you mentioned. Um, is that just like I don't I coping mechanism does not sound like the exactly the way that I want to say it, but is is I guess it's avoidance, maybe just it's better to not think about death because this is a possibility. And so what I do is just focus on my life.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Oh yeah, absolutely. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Yeah. Do you feel like that that helps? Because sometimes I do wonder if this was a big mistake for me. I mean, I've met, I think I've met a lot of amazing people, so it's definitely not a mistake. But I mean, I have had some of these, you know, like what I call existential attacks, kind of like I was describing with like car on my chest and this and that. I had kind of my first one. It wasn't as extreme as the ones that I was having right before I started this project, but I had one again, and it's like that fear is still there. I have not conquered this fear. I want it to be absolutely clear that I'm not judging you by any extent. I'm actually, it's fun to bounce it off someone else who is similarly afraid of death, and you didn't start a project and create a podcast and all this stuff. So maybe you were the smarter one. So I'm curious, do you feel like that's working for you, not thinking about death?

SPEAKER_01 24:50

So um, so I think that it's like an inherent knowledge of like, yeah, I'm I'm going to go one day. Yeah. And I especially feel awareness of my own mortality as my children grow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

Because I think it's gotta be a reminder.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Reminder. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Constant reminder.

Mortality Through Parenting

SPEAKER_01 25:11

My my like my youngest is, you know, he's still like he's he's in kindergarten. And my oldest is like just started college. I had her young. So I had her young, but she is, you know, she's 19. And I think about like I can remember what it was like when I was 19.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

And the fact that she is that age now, like it when when I was little, I thought that 30 was like you're an old person. And I'm like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

And so I realized like I'm that much closer to, you know, to not being around like my grandma lived until she was 101. Okay. So that was cool. So you got some good genetics. Yeah, yeah. She was really good for her. But at the same time, I think that the times where I do think about it, it's it's very much in a a way to kind of encourage myself and motivate myself to keep doing the things that I need to do so that I can live the life that I want and live and give my kids the life that I feel that they deserve.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

So yeah, it's not thinking about like what it's going to be like is I'm really good at compartmentalizing.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

So this is the longest I've thought about it in quite some time. But I I don't feel like it's not causing me fear. Like I don't feel any of that right now. Um, I think that's actually really interesting that I don't because usually like I would kind of spiral.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Um I was gonna say, is it usually because you're doing it alone?

SPEAKER_01 26:44

I think so.

Community Eases The Spiral

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Because I've never had an existential attack when I'm like I've been with my ex, was like in the same room, but like we were not really talking, you know, like I don't know if we were reading or whatever, but it's just like, oh yeah, it's because I'm in my own head and and spinning out. But that is an interesting thing that someone else mentioned recently is like this podcast or whatever this is, this caller was mentioning this is the longest probably most people have sat and talked about death in a long time or ever.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

And so yeah, I guess I I will say that I am glad that this didn't bring up a lot of anxiety and fear, like I would have hated for me to be like, oh yeah, let's talk about this thing that you're afraid of, and then be like, oh great, thanks, Zach. You just like sent me down a spiral, and you know, that's not great. I guess I'm probably doing the same thing to some extent where it's like I'm thinking about death a lot, but I'm not necessarily thinking about what comes next if there is anything. I guess what I'm also thinking about death is just like the communal aspect of talking to people, you know, like so. I mean, there's there is a difference. So there's probably some compartmentalization here too. But I do love, I don't know if this is what I'll take from the call, but if anything that I think is super important is the fact that you said that you have fear around it and we talked about it, and it didn't bring up fear, and that's kind of cool. And so I'm glad that that happened at least.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Yeah, I mean, I hope it's I hope that's the same for you too, where it's not causing you like anxiety or fear.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

No.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

I think that us talking about it, it helps me. It helps me realize that yes, I'm afraid that this is what's going to happen.

SPEAKER_02 28:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

And I know that I can fixate and spiral if I let myself, but it's at the end of the day, it's just my own theory. And it might not even be like that. It might not be that bad, it might not be anything like that. So being able to talk to you about this, it actually takes away some of that fear that I have. So I think that's that's actually that's really great.

Meaning, Media, And Deep Talk

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Well, I'm so glad. I think that is one of my big hopes with this project. I don't know, we don't necessarily need to talk about it all the time. I'm talking about it quite a bit right now, but we don't all have to talk about it all the time. But I think just in general, we don't really have deep conversations with other people that often. I mean, potentially our partners, hopefully our partners. But I feel like a lot of times we're just all really tired. The world is a really weird place right now. Social media has created a weird landscape of being able to see all this trauma and tragedy happening constantly because that's just how the world works, unfortunately. And so I think we're all just so tired and we talk about very boring things. And I just love that having conversations like this connects people and makes you less afraid. And so, yeah, I'm so glad that I'm so glad that this didn't spin you out. It definitely won't spin me out. I'm really glad that we did this. I'm glad that you were willing. I mean, you were pretty quick. Most people, when I'm like, okay, yeah, you got randomly selected, and then you know, sometimes people book it, you know, like, oh yeah, I'll do it the end of next week. Like you're like, okay, yep, I'll I'll schedule tomorrow. So like I love even with the the fear and anxiety around death that you were so willing to open up to the opportunity. So thank you for doing that.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Yeah, I know, thank you. I think it's I think that your podcast and your, you know, this whole project overall is really fascinating. I've talked to my friends about it and I have yet to listen to all of the um all of the episodes, but I am really looking forward to being able to do that because I think that you're right. We don't we don't talk enough about you know the like the the real good questions, you know.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

I think that's the stuff that actually connects us, right? The stuff that we all experience.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

I think about it tangentially in uh like I write a lot of poetry so I'm in uh communities with like poet friends, and you know, we'll have workshops and we'll you know kind of discuss like what is this poem about? Like sometimes the poem is about death or loss or something like that. But I it doesn't make me think about my own experience and what it'll be like. I just think about it in general, you know, from from an outside perspective and like how I can write about it. But I think that this is a completely different and unique way of kind of addressing it and just having that conversation. It's given me a lot to think about, but all in good ways. I think that's the biggest thing is all in good ways. And I I'm just really appreciative of that.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Awesome. Well, yeah, thank you. Thank you for the kind words. I I did not pay you to say any of those things, but I I appreciate you sharing the project with others. And yeah, again, I'm just so thankful that you're willing to do this, willing to be vulnerable. And like we talked very briefly about, you know, kind of your belief of consciousness kind of ceasing to exist and you know, energy, whatever. We talked about that very momentarily, and then I kind of pushed you into this like conversation about this thing that you fear, very rightly so, but like very, very personal, very deep. And so I just want to thank you for being willing to do that and being willing to jump on this call. And I'm I'm really glad that that we did this.

Contradictions, Ghosts, And Uncertainty

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Yeah, you know what? I just thought of something too. Um, it's really weird. So I know I mentioned before, like, I don't believe in God, but I believe in like demons. And like I so it's it's weird that like I I totally believe in ghosts, but then at the same time, how like logically, how how would I believe in ghosts if I don't think that anything is gonna happen to me afterwards? Like I it doesn't logically makes absolutely no sense because I'm still afraid. The fear is the only thing that keeps me going.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

That is uh if you really boil it down, it's like if that isn't the human experience, just perfectly personified right there. That is so much of oh yeah, if I really thought about this, this doesn't make sense, but still that that is a possibility. So it's not getting it's not getting taken off the table, and I'm gonna still be afraid. And I'm not saying that that is ridiculous at all. I do that 4,000 times a day. So I don't know. That's that's I feel like such a wonderful place to end this. Thank you again so much. I'm so glad we did this. And I hope you have a good rest of your day, and we'll we'll have to stay in touch and maybe I'll have to find like the group of us that are still terrified of death, and we'll have to have like a uh a support group. We'll have a like a a terrified of death support group or something. Totally. Yeah. But but yeah, I uh I appreciate you and yeah, we'll let's definitely stay in touch.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Yes, definitely. Thank you so much, Doc.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Yeah. All right, take care.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

All right, have a good day.

Closing Reflections And Next Steps

Outro And Ways To Participate

SPEAKER_00 33:53

All right, bye. Bye. If you feel seen by this one, I think it's because the fear is so familiar. Not fear of dying, but fear of being trapped in something you can't control and not being able to explain it to anyone without feeling alone in it. And I'm glad we stayed with it long enough for it to soften a little. Not fix, just less sealed shut. What stood out to me is how much of this call is us trying to get the fear into focus. Not by analyzing it, but by staying close to the actual feeling until it stops being this giant shapeless thing. Once it gets more specific, it's not really death anymore. It's the fear of being stuck, the fear of losing control, the fear that whatever happens next is permanent and you can't opt out. And what surprised me is the caller saying pretty plainly that talking about it helped. Not because we figured anything out, but because saying it out loud took some of the charge out of it. It's not a breakthrough, it's just a little less intense. I think that's what I'll remember from this one. Sometimes it's not about a new belief. It's just not having to hold it alone. One quick note before I roll the outro, the voicemail line has started to pick up again, which I'm really happy about. It's where this whole thing began, and I don't want to lose that thread. I'm not ready to start including voicemail clips at the end of the episodes yet. I want to make sure I can keep it consistent before I can make it part of the show again. But I am listening and I'm saving them, and I'm looking forward to weaving them back in when it's steady. Thanks for listening to this episode of When We Dietalks. These conversations don't offer answers, but they do open space. Space to reflect, to feel less alone, and maybe to see things a little bit differently than before. If you'd like to explore your own beliefs out loud, you can apply to be an anonymous caller at WhenWeDietalks.com. And if a full call feels like too much, the voicemail is always open. Leave a message at 971-328-0864 and share whatever death has stirred in your life. Listener support truly helps keep this project going. If you'd like to support the podcast, you'll find a link in the show notes. And as always, please like, share, and follow. Every bit makes a difference. Until next time, have a good life.